Question regarding ISD droids

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fabulousfreep
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Question regarding ISD droids

Post by fabulousfreep » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:08 pm

Why is it that when i submit "Renewable Energy" survey droids info it NEVER removes the out of date resourses ?
Solar Geothermal or wind, it just adds the new ones and leaves the old ones there.

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zbignew » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:42 pm

Good question, I'm sure Zimoon will want to know exactly how you are submitting them, SWGaide, text file, etc. Never used them for energy resources so I'm afraid I can't help.

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Savacc
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Savacc » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:03 pm

This is one for Sobuno. I was just going to leave it for him to answer, but then realized I havent heard from him in a while. I just checked and he hasnt logged in in over a week. He must be on vacation.

A little investigation on my part reveals that there can be two Geothermal resources in spawn on a single planet. Since the second would have to come from the "random pool" and the "random pool" is defiantly weighted towards other resources, a second geothermal would be very rare, but we have to allow for the possibility. So there is no way we can "auto mark unavailable" geothermal resources when a newer one is reported. Solar and Wind, yes. My same sources say that only one of these will ever be in spawn, on a planet. It is quite possible Sobuno knows something I do not and there is another reason he has not set these to automatically mark as unavailable when a new resource is reported. We shall have to wait on his response. :wink:

fabulousfreep
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by fabulousfreep » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:17 pm

Ok 2 things you should know.

#1 it is possible for there to be up to 4 Geothermals up at one time on the same planet, provided the timing is correct you can see the incoming and outgoing materials. It would take very good luck / timing for this to happen but it's possible, same goes for 2 Solar or Wind Resourses.

#2 I'm talking about resourses that are totally gone and still not being auto removed when i do Surveys droids.


When I input the droid data i go to "Add Resources" Click the "Browse" Button and select the droid data from my mailsave file, repeat X 10 and hit Update. Rinse and repeat for all resourses. It will always remove resourses that are gone for minerals, flora, etc and every once in a while water will bug out and not remove the ones that are gone, but power resourses NEVER work right for me.

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Savacc
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Savacc » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:26 am

I dispute #1 all day long with you. It is just not the way resource spawns work. The replacement resource never spawns before the old despawns. The reverse is true. There will be a short period while no resource is present (geothermal, wind, solar, whatever) before the replacement spawns. See Lunariel's Guide to Resource shifts

The reason water "bugs out" is the exact reason we will not be able to "fix" geothermal for you - There can be an extra water in spawn for any planet.

I am really just speculating here as to why Sobuno may have coded things the way he did. We are going to have to wait for Sobuno to enlighten us.

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Zimoon
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zimoon » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:55 am

I remember there were some oddities with ISDroid posted to the site via the web form a few weeks ago, could be the same issue here.

When SWGAide submits data from ISDroids it depletes them hard by sending a depleted-resource message to the server, so that could be a choice. On the other hand, if nobody posted data the harder way the bugs would never be discovered :lol:

/Zimoon

fabulousfreep
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by fabulousfreep » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:54 am

I've actually seen 3 geothermals at one time and watched 1 of them disappear while i was surveying, so the assumption that one "Always" disappears completly before another comes in is IMHO incorrect.

Thing about the isd droids is, if i'm inputting droids, and it's reporting ALL resourses of that type on a planet shouldn't it logically remove all resourses of that type that AREN'T reported?

Also i don't use SWGAide, update from game mail / mailsave / Website.

Also who do i have to talk to to get them to add Energy resourses to the #¤%& resourse deed, sick of running all over #¤%&(/( yavin trying to sample Geotherms.
Last edited by Zimoon on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Replaced foul language, this is not General Play Discussion forum at SOE

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Zimoon
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zimoon » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:51 pm

fabulousfreep wrote:I've actually seen 3 geothermals at one time and watched 1 of them disappear while i was surveying, so the assumption that one "Always" disappears completly before another comes in is IMHO incorrect.
Pass -- I have not done Geothermals or harvested it more than occasionally so I have nothing to say.

Thing about the isd droids is, if i'm inputting droids, and it's reporting ALL resourses of that type on a planet shouldn't it logically remove all resourses of that type that AREN'T reported?
Yes, the logic is simple because an ISDroid reads all resources of its kind so if it is listed as in-spawn here at SWGCraft but is not found in the ISDroid report then it has despawned. As I said earlier today, I came across another post the other week about some other resource class so I guess that it is some bug here at the site, however, Sobuno has announced a short vacation and I have no info about the other developers here. Just show some patience until it is fixed, will you?

Also i don't use SWGAide, update from game mail / mailsave / Website.
Perhaps you should give it a shot? Anything in particular against that? 8)
Pros with the ISDroid reports:
-- Ease of submission: /mailsave -> SWGAide-submit-1 -> write to in-game notes file -> in-game and add stats to the notes file and close the notepad -> SWGAide-submit-2 including stats
-- Instant notification in SWGAide if a guard is alerted or if a harvester begins to idle on a depleted resource

Other pros:
-- Too many to enumerate :lol:

Cons:
-- None that I know of 8)

Price:
-- Gratis :lol:


Also who do i have to talk to to get them to add Energy resourses to the #¤%& resourse deed, sick of running all over #¤%&(/( yavin trying to sample Geotherms.
SOE dev team. None of the Energy resource classes are present in the 30k deed. It has been that way forever, or at least for a very long time. I have a vague memory of Wind and Solar but I may confuse myself.

Indeed, starport hopping to sample a few units is not ideal, but out of curiosity, do you really need to run around that much at a planet to get one unit to read? Perhaps I am overly optimistic thinking +10% would be the rarer case, am I?
Greetings
/Zimoon

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Savacc
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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Savacc » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:48 am

Fabulous,
You do understand that this website is not affiliated with SOE or Lucas Arts? No one here works for them nor has any connection to them. The closest connection we have, is that some of the mods here are also senators for the SOE forums. All of us are players and fans of the game, just like you.

Because of this, no one here knows how resource spawns really work. None of us have seen the code, we have no certainties. The best we can do is observe how the spawns work out, and then speculate as to how they might be coded. At this point, let me add that the devs who wrote the code are long gone from SOE, and it is widely believed that the current devs are in as much ignorance as we are. I have a theory on how resource spawns work. It is not original with me, I am a disciple of Lunariel the first master at attempting to explain the intricacies of this game. I have accepted Lunariel's works because I feel they best explain the game as I know it. I had several conversations with Lunariel on the original SWGCraft, while she still played the game. My last conversation, as she announced she was quitting, was how to monitor the resource spawns and continue to update her guide to Resource Spawns. Since then I have been shown some data that many believe Lunariel must have used to form her theories. If the files are correct, and they looked valid to me, then they do completely support Lunariel's contentions.

All of this to say that your assertion that 3 or 4 geothermal resources can be in spawn on one planet flies in the face of Lunariel's theories and this data file I have seen. I believe you are mistaken and the situation you describe as fact, could not have happened. Unless everything I know about the game has suddenly changed.

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zimoon » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:16 pm

I agree with Savacc, I have also had the opportunity to review these files and the data that supports them. However, we have seen thing change at times, but with resource spawns that has been a rarity.

I will keep an eye out regarding this while in-game but if you notice this once again I humbly ask you to take a screenshot of the survey tool, gather data about which resource has been in spawn and for how long plus the resource that spawns at about the time this happens.

I have a theory, based on an idea I have about how the several SOE servers work: assume resource spawns are managed by one server and it decides to shift a Geothermal at Lok, it issues a despawn-message for distribution to the Lok-servers and also a new-spawn-message for distribution to the very same servers. Due to the nature of servers and any network the first message is lost in cyber-space but the second gets through. At this point it takes all the time until next "synchronize" which can take hours. Some synchronization points are obviously run just at server resets (Tues-, Thurs- and Saturdays 4 AM PDT/PST). During this unexpected window I could imagine that there are two overlapping resources visible.

We have also the opposite problem, the first message gets through but the second is lost. Then there is a window without a "required" resource available, such as a Organic of some kind. A few hours later it appears, but it has meanwhile been "available" in the 30k device. Oddities and glitches which do not support any claim that the "rules" have changed.

All this said, if the rules have changed all of us are keen on knowing about it but I believe you need to back it up with "proofs" and as the saying goes ... "without a screenshot it has never happened" :D

/Zimoon

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Sobuno » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:01 pm

The ISD report feature on this site only adds the resources mentioned in the report to the database (and marks them available if they are already present), it does not mark all other resources from that category as unavailable.

Why? I have no idea.

And yes, Geothermal is not set to auto-despawn. Should it be any other way?

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zimoon » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:52 pm

OK, now we know why, but problem remains. And there are two issues here, let's take them one by one.

The split second it is generated an ISDroid report tells exactly what is present for its resource class and for the one planet it pertains to.

Adding is always risk-free as long as date of mail is validated.

A despawn is usually riskfree, but there is small risk; if a resource is wrongly reported for a planet the ISDroid report may fool the logic to despawn it at the entire galaxy. That is, because the resource does not exist in the report for that planet the logic thinks it is despawned but for the entire galaxy.

The only way to get around this and to retain the "global" despawn system is to first scan and build an action list, then despawn only those that are not mentioned at any other planet. Or any fashion that guards against tis kind of error.

This assumes that ISDroids are sent to all the 10 core planets. Otherwise the risk rapidly increases that the wrongly reported is despawned.

In SWGAide it didn't take long until this limitation had to be dealt with for. Still, if less than 10 reports there is a risk for mishaps.

So, should SWGCraft use the "despawn entire galaxy" when an ISDroid report indicates a despawn? Yes, absoletly!

First of all it is not a common problem. As long as it is possible for moderators to "remove from planet" without despawning it is OK.

Add guards per the above.

If upload for a particular resource class does not cover 10 planets, notify the user.



The second topic is about auto-despawn or not. I pass on that one for now, even if I trust Lunarie's research it is true that changes could have raken place.

ISDroid reports cover both spawn and despawn so...

Does this explanarion help?

/Zimoon

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Savacc » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:37 am

How useful is the Add Resources ISD feature here at SWGCraft? Are people using it? To me it makes more sense to steer people to SWGAide then it would to ask Sobuno to spend a lot of time making Add Resources mirror what SWGAide already does. :?

On auto-despawn, I have never been real clear how much auto-despawn code Sobuno has in the system. I recall a discussion about despawning anything over 22 days. For planetary resources (except Mustafar) we could have them auto-despawn, again, except for geothermal and water. The JTL resources could be set to auto-despawn too. By "auto-despawn" I mean, if a new resource is reported, any old resource is automatically marked as unavailable.

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Savacc » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:56 am

I want to get real technical and nit-picky for a while and write a real long post. This is mostly for Z and anyone else who is fascinated by this kind of stuff. If you dont really care about resource spawns then quit reading. :D
Zimoon wrote:I have a theory, based on an idea I have about how the several SOE servers work: assume resource spawns are managed by one server and it decides to shift a Geothermal at Lok, it issues a despawn-message for distribution to the Lok-servers and also a new-spawn-message for distribution to the very same servers. Due to the nature of servers and any network the first message is lost in cyber-space but the second gets through. At this point it takes all the time until next "synchronize" which can take hours. Some synchronization points are obviously run just at server resets (Tues-, Thurs- and Saturdays 4 AM PDT/PST). During this unexpected window I could imagine that there are two overlapping resources visible.
My theory is a bit different Z. Again, my theory is based on things Lunariel said. Some of it we saved, and is in her Guide to Resource shifts. Unfortunately, some of it is lost, and it is only from my memory of posts by Lunariel on the old SWGCraft.
First is the issue of when resources despawn. Lunariel felt there were two possibilities. One, is that after a resource reaches its minimum length, a die role is made every day, or lessor period, to determine if it despawns or continues on until it reaches its max length and auto despawns. The second option is that when a resource spawns, a despawn date and time is written into it, and as soon as despawn = true, the resource despawns. Lunariel supported the second option because of the nearly perfect distribution of spawn lengths between the min and max limits. My initial impression of your theory, Z, is that your theory required option two, but rereading it I see that any method of determining a despawn will work under your theory.

Where I really disagree with you Z is in what happens next, how the system determines a new spawn. Your idea is that the system sends a despawn message and a new spawn message nearly simultaneously. I dont see it that way. I think resources despawn when they are set to. At certain intervals of the day (every 2-3 hours) the system checks to see if the max number if resources are present (have there been any despawns?). If so, the system runs a check of all resources to see if all of the minimum required resources are met. Lunariel identified a "Minimum Pool", a "Fixed Pool" and a "Native Pool" that had to be filled first. Im not sure the system separates them out like that, I think it just goes up and down the list checking for minimums. In Z's example, a Loc geothermal has despawned. My theory says that the system finds that Loc is supposed to have a minimum of one geothermal, but has zero. So it spawns a new Loc geothermal.

At this point, those of you who bothered to read this far, are probably saying, "Who cares, does it really matter how the system spawns a replacement resource?" I think it does, because though the vast number of resources are fixed, there is a very small (but vital) number of random resources in the game. Z's theory will adequately describe how fixed resources can be replaced, but I dont see how it accounts for random resources. My research shows that there are 690 resources in spawn on every server. Of those 658 are fixed, and only 32 are random.

If you have followed this thread, then you may recall that I have stated that geothermal resources are fixed at a min of one per planet, and an additional geothermal may spawn from the "Random Pool" (one of the 32). What happens if there are two geothermal resources on Loc and one despawns? I am going to have to speculate here a bit on how Z's theory may account for this. I can imagine that Z's theory will have those 32 random resources flagged, and when a random resource despawns, a message is sent to generate another random resource in its place. So Loc now has two geothermals, the fixed one it always has, and now a random one too. The fixed resource despawns. According to Z's theory, a new Loc geothermal takes its place. But in my theory, the system finds Loc has its min one geothermal and keeps checking and ends up being a random resource, almost certainly not another Loc Geothermal. Those of you who watch resource spawns a lot can tell you which scenario is true. Z can tell you, though we may have to change the example to water and the planet to Talus. :wink: I know that Z used to be a Master Doc back in the day, and Talus water was essential for medical crafting. I know Z religiously watched the spawns of water on Talus. When there were two waters in spawn on Talus, Z, and one despawned, did another take its place, or did you have to wait till the second despawned to get a new spawn? (actually water is unique and there can be up to three in spawn on a single planet)

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Re: Question regarding ISD droids

Post by Zimoon » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:19 am

Savacc wrote:How useful is the Add Resources ISD feature here at SWGCraft? Are people using it? To me it makes more sense to steer people to SWGAide then it would to ask Sobuno to spend a lot of time making Add Resources mirror what SWGAide already does. :?
Obviously there are people that want to do it the hard way. This can be for several reasons:
- They never install any software but the most essential
- They mistrust software from an for them unknown developer
- They use another SWG helper-tool and do not want yet another one, no matter how good it is
- They are less smart 8)
Hence I leave this for Slyvampy and Sobuno to decide. And I pity them who want to do everything the harder way, but that decision is theirs.


On auto-despawn, I have never been real clear how much auto-despawn code Sobuno has in the system. I recall a discussion about despawning anything over 22 days.
I am quite sure he said 25 days somewhere, but I cannot be asked to dig it up. At least he added some leeway.

For planetary resources (except Mustafar) we could have them auto-despawn, again, except for geothermal and water. The JTL resources could be set to auto-despawn too. By "auto-despawn" I mean, if a new resource is reported, any old resource is automatically marked as unavailable.
I would suggest that it is implemented in a generic way so it is easy for a developer at this site to add and withdraw from the pool of auto-despawns.
/Zimoon goes red

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