+ 40 before or after

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hgamuciello
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+ 40 before or after

Post by hgamuciello » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:38 pm

Ok so I was reading about averaging resources and got confused. For example let's say a schem calls for 50/50 oq and sr. The resource calls for steel and the steel has 950 oq and 970 sr hypothetically. Does my resource refinement I.e. The +40 go into calculations before or after I average these numbers such as .5 x 950 = 475 .5x970= 485 485+475= 960 then I add the +40 for a cap resource at 1000 or is the +40 put on both numbers individually then averaged and is their anything I might be forgetting when using my calculations that I still need to learn. Basically can someone show me the math used for understanding crafting such as if other resources affect stats and how the numbers work.
*and do stats on one resource bring up the lower stats on the same resource or other resources?*
Last edited by hgamuciello on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Swedishoyster
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Swedishoyster » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:51 am

It's always been my understanding that the +40 is calculated immediately, so a resource that's 960 will count as 1000 when the calculations start. But I always just try to reach 96% average and then know that the last 4% is covered by the +40.
Not sure about stuff with lesser caps though, if they also get a hard +40 or a +4%.

no doubt Zimoon can (will?) produce a long post with the exact math, but just try to get 96% average, then you don't have to bother about the math.

Use the "find resource" thingie at this site and just make sure the rating is 960+ on your resource and you will cap whatever it is you are making.

In your example above with 950 and a 970 resources they average at 960 (providing you need as much of both resources) so you would cap with those. Remember to use a suit, bespin port, luck, crossing your fingers and holding your breath... :-)
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Savacc
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Savacc » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:33 pm

No, the Swedish Oyster is wrong (Im still wondering if oysters really grow in Sweden?)

The +40 Resource Refinement bonus is added at the very end, after all averaging, weighing for amounts and calculating caps. A number is first arrived at without any bonus, then any bonus is added only once.

Zimoon covers it all in his guide, chapter on Power Crafting, an example of the math is included

In your example the 950 does not become 990 and the 970, 1100. Instead, 950 and 970 are weighed for amounts and any cap considered, then averaged. The experimental properties are figured, in your example, 50% OQ and 50% SR. Now the Refinery Bonus is added. If this final number is 960+ the bonus will make it 1000 (anything over 1000 is dropped)

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Savacc
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Savacc » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:25 pm

A few other things to clear up:

Yes, resources over 960 will help you bring up the average for resources under 960 and still allow you to "cap" after adding the +40 bonus to the average of 960+

The "+40" bonus is just that, it is not +4%, the devs lied to us. If you had resources so bad they averaged only 1, the bonus would bring it to 41, and so on.

If your resources average 960, after weighing for amounts and considering caps,then adding the bonus, you will be able to experiment one line of the schematic to 100% ("cap" it). No Bespin Port, Crafting Suits, crossing your fingers or luck needed. It is all straight math. Where you need all those things is if you want to try to "cap" a second line in the schematic (I still say only Shipwrights can "cap" a second line, that is, get two lines to 100%)
Last edited by Savacc on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: to clerify any confusion

hgamuciello
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by hgamuciello » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:34 pm

So in theory I can use resources for AS let's say that need OQ SR and the resources can average out to say 920 then add refinement to 960 and it would still be possible to cap even a first experiment line even though I am still 40 from perfect resources. Looks like I am gonna have to change my swg aide guards for all four of my traders cause I have all the guards for everything set to 960 average

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Savacc
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Savacc » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:57 pm

hgamuciello wrote:So in theory I can use resources for AS let's say that need OQ SR and the resources can average out to say 920 then add refinement to 960 and it would still be possible to cap even a first experiment line even though I am still 40 from perfect resources. Looks like I am gonna have to change my swg aide guards for all four of my traders cause I have all the guards for everything set to 960 average
No, the +40 bonus is added only once. I am not sure where in my discussion you got the idea it was added twice.

You could easily use a resource 920, or even lower, and still "cap". As long as the total of your resources, weighed for amounts, adjusted for caps and the experimental properties, was 960+. Then when the +40 bonus is added (just once, and at the end) you will "cap".

Cap = 1000 or 100%

hgamuciello
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by hgamuciello » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:23 am

No That last statement I was adding the refinement at the end to the average of both stats which I said was 920 then +40 to be a 960 and I was asking that when I go to experiment on that line is it possible for me to still hit 100% sorry I guess I coulda explained that better. Also in order for a resources OQ to be brought up from say 900 it used the OqQ of all the resources your using averaged together then divided by the amounts of the each individual resource is called for correct. so for example it if a schem called for 10 wooly hide with 990 oq and 930 Sr. and 10 steel 930 oq and 960 Sr. The math would look like this:
Oq= (990 + 930)/2= 960 (no refinement Added yet) (also both resources call for 10 so that portion cancels out I believe) next SR = (930 + 960)/2= 945 so now can that cap since then I add the refinement and the stats will be 1000 OQ/ 985 SR with amazing success or will I still only get 98 or 99% ??? please correct my math if there are any mistakes and thanks for your help just trying to understand crafting a little better

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Savacc
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Savacc » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:25 am

hgamuciello wrote:No That last statement I was adding the refinement at the end to the average of both stats which I said was 920 then +40 to be a 960 and I was asking that when I go to experiment on that line is it possible for me to still hit 100% sorry I guess I coulda explained that better. Also in order for a resources OQ to be brought up from say 900 it used the OqQ of all the resources your using averaged together then divided by the amounts of the each individual resource is called for correct. so for example it if a schem called for 10 wooly hide with 990 oq and 930 Sr. and 10 steel 930 oq and 960 Sr. The math would look like this:
Oq= (990 +930)/2= 960 (no refinement Added yet) (also both resources call for 10 so that portion cancels out I believe) next SR = (930 + 960)/2= 945 so now can that cap since then I add the refinement and the stats will be 1000 OQ/ 985 SR with amazing success or will I still only get 98 or 99% ??? please correct my math if there are any mistakes and thanks for your help just trying to understand crafting a little better
You were correct up to this point
OQ = (990 +930)/2= 960
SR = (930 + 960)/2= 945
If you weighed for the amounts, the formula would look like this:
OQ = [(990 * 10 + 930 * 10)/(10 +10)]/2 = 960
SR = [(930 * 10 + 930 * 10)/(10 + 10)]/2 = 945
The next step is to apply the experimental properties. You did not specify in your example, but let's say they are OQ 50% and SR 50%. So
OQ = 960 * .5 = 480
SR = 945 * .5 = 472.5
Add them together.
480 + 472.5 = 952.5
Now is where you add the Resource Refinery Bonus of +40 (if you took all four boxes)
952.5 + 40 = 992.5
The highest you will be able to experiment any line in this schematic is 99.25% (actually the .25 is dropped). It will come very, very close to capping, but it will not cap. No amount of Bespin Port, Crafting Suits, nor any amount of "amazings" will get this any higher then 99%. The only thing to do is use better resources.

In the example of the first sentence of your post, where your resources come to 920 after all averaging and weighing, then the +40 is added to make it 960. The best you could experiment that to is 96%.

hgamuciello
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by hgamuciello » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:09 am

Exactly what I wanted appreciate that very much thanks

Imperial Outpost
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Imperial Outpost » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:05 am

If you're unsure of a calculation, run it through here: http://trader.swgcraft.org/checkSchematic.php

It shows you the calculations used at the bottom...

oceanseleven
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by oceanseleven » Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:08 pm

After reading all your posts, and then going to this site,
http://trader.swgcraft.org/checkSchematic.php
I am starting to understand how the calculations are determined. Thank you very much!

Zimoon
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Re: + 40 before or after

Post by Zimoon » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:32 am

All of this is ... said well knowing what Savacc posted ... explained in detail in chapter 8 of the beginner's guide. All followup questions are completely void if you had read that chapter no more than one iteration.

Now, I want to know the following:
-- Is that chapter in any way confusing or messy? If so, how can we improve it?
-- Is that chapter partitioned badly or the important items not highlighted well enough? If so, how can we improve it?
-- Is that chapter too long or boring to study? If so, how can we improve it?

Why do I ask? To be mean with the newcomers that obviously have not read it?
Far from that ... I am a very kind and laid back guy, but if there is anything that can be improved I am always listening. Sincerely I am.

/Zimoon

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